Episode Guest
Beth English – Executive Director
Organization of American Historians
Speed Round
What is your earliest park memory?
Earliest park memory is probably the National Mall being at the National Mall with my family. We went on a, it was one of these, everybody gets in the station wagon. Literally the station wagon with the wood paneling drove down from Pennsylvania, spent a week in Washington.
It was amazing, I don’t know. It was, I was pretty young, but I distinctly remember being at the Lincoln Memorial and we were reading, and looking around and my dad said to me, he said, doesn’t this make you feel proud? And I did. I was like, all goose bumpy. But of course, being a kid and being like, grouchy and surly, I’m like, no, but I lo I just absolutely love the National Mall.
That’s one of my very earliest memories of a national park.
What made you love the parks?
Ooh. I, again, I think it’s, I think it’s experiencing them well. I love the history. I’ve always been a history nerd. But I think also experiencing them with my family some of my best park memories were when I was a kid traveling, family vacations. My dad and I took this great trip with my mom and my husband as well, and my now 16-year-old, he was barely one at the time, but we went to, he, my dad was losing his eyesight and he had this bucket list of parks he wanted to go to. And so we went to the Badlands and Yellowstone and Grand Tetons and Grand Canyon. We did this like park hop. It was a crazy trip. But it’s those kinds of things that makes me love the parks. Not just experiencing these amazing spaces and natural wonders, but having that closeness to be, with people to be able to experience ’em with.
What is your favorite thing about the parks?
I think probably that they are uniquely American in a lot of ways, right? They they’re a testament to the scale and the diversity of our country. They’re just these amazing testaments of, of what this place is. And I think there are also testaments to where we have come from, from the ear, from the earliest days of when the parks were founded, to our understanding of what those places were and now are, and how we can understand our history through them.
What is your favorite thing to do in a park?
I like to hike. I like to hike, I would say hiking. I also like a good park hotel where you can kick up your feet and just relax. Yeah.
What park have you yet to visit but is on your bucket list and why?
Oh gosh. I would say probably top of the list would be Glacier National Park. I’d love to see it. It is just, I’ve seen pictures of it and it’s so gorgeous and I’ve not ever been to a park like that before, so I think that would be at the top of the list.
What are three must-haves you pack for a park visit?
Three must haves. Okay. Binoculars always take binoculars. I would say take a jacket because you never know when the weather’s gonna turn. And I should probably say something like a compass, but practically speaking, I would be more likely to pack like snacks so that I’m comfortable on the trip.
What is your favorite campfire activity?
Campfire activity, I would say would be singing song, campfire songs. I love that.
Tent, camper, or cabin?
Cabin, if I had a choice for sure.
Hiking with or without trekking poles?
Oh, without, definitely.
And what is your favorite trail snack?
Probably almonds or some kind of salty, salty snack like that.
What is the favorite animal sighting that you’ve had?
Whew. I would say a grizzly bear in Yellowstone. I was out there with my family and my brother’s family, and we saw this amazing grizzly bear and the kids, they were little at the time, kept calling it grizz through the whole, we had this had this thing with Grizz, the whole trip.
What is your favorite sound in the parks?
Oh, good one. I don’t know, like water, like rushing water. Trickling water, like streams and rivers. I, that’s just such a calming sound to me.
What is the greatest gift the parks give to us?
The greatest gift parks give to us. I think it’s that there’s something that we can, there’s something that we can all share and we can all, we can all share together.
Episode Transcript
Our parks are home to so much of our history. At a time where some of those stories are being threatened, I wanted to learn more about the process of gathering credible history. Join me as we explore history and the parks. I’m your host, Missy Rentz, and this is The Parks Podcast.
Missy Rentz:
I am excited to have Beth English on The Parks Podcast with me today. Beth is the Executive Director of the Organization of American Historians. Beth, welcome to The Parks Podcast.
Beth English:
Thanks so much, Missy. Really glad to be here.
Missy Rentz:
I am really excited because I think this is the start of a new series for me, and I haven’t really announced it yet. So this is the. Ta-da moment. I started. Thank you. Thank you. I started going to the Parks for Nature and what nature does, I think it’s very healing. I think I just would get very meditative. I love the discovery. I love the curiosity that nature encourages. What was unexpected to me is how I fell in love with the history and the stories that the parks tell us. And it’s so exciting. I think many of our parks are dedicated to stories of the past, whether it’s, historical human figures, actions, events nature. Why is capturing history and remembering our history so important.
Beth English:
I think you put your finger on something really critical just in terms of how you reacted to the parks and. That’s that history connects us to who we are, right? History as as individuals, as communities, as a nation. It helps us understand choices people have made in the past, struggles, values that have shaped, the society in which people in the past lived and experienced their world, but then also today. And so when we think about capturing history and preserving history, it’s not just about protecting something that happened in the past and artifacts and places we’re really protecting and keeping a record of the voices, the lessons, the events that help us make sense of our present and give us context for our present. And, without that, in a lot of ways we can really lose our sense of direction, Whether it’s again, it’s individuals, communities, a nation, what have you. That’s what’s really critical about capturing these stories of the past.
Missy Rentz:
So it’s a little bit of let’s learn from our mistakes, but also let’s learn from our successes?
Beth English:
Yeah, I think that’s right. I think there’s one of the, one of the threads of conversation that’s, been happening recently is there are parts of our past that are. Defacto bad because they’re not celebratory, right? They don’t tell this sort of triumphal, this narrative about about American history. In fact that history is also, that history should also be celebrated because if no other reason that it helps us understand where we’ve come from, it helps us understand the. Imperfect and ongoing American experiment and it helps us have a better sense of and to be able to celebrate the progress that has been made and to have that understanding of what still needs to be done.
Missy Rentz:
So I think like many people, when they read history, or they’re told stories about history, they think that’s them, not me. I feel like there has to be ownership taken in all history. Is that correct? And if so, how do we get people to, to consume history as like an observer and a lesson and not like that personal attack.
Beth English:
Sure. I think it’s often good to, to look at history through your sort of individual. Lens right through your own experience and, think about all the things that you go through in any given day choices you make. What are you going to eat for dinner? Everything from, something really simple to, something really grand, that is a huge decision point, for example, in your life. F people who lived in the past were, different from us, right? Because they lived in a different time and different a different setting and, all kinds of, there are all kinds of differences, but at the very core of history is that. They were people, they faced choices. There were political pressures, there were moments of uncertainty, there were moments of celebration. And so it’s they were just like us, in some ways, right? It’s not, I think sometimes history when it’s just a dates and facts kind of thing, a lot of times that’s the starting point for a lot of people in schools, the dates and the facts. Like you have to know all the presidents and you have to know all of the turning point dates and things like that. But when we see history as as lived experience, I think that’s an opening for us to get past that”That’s them. That’s not me.” And what can, what can we learn from those experience that that again helps us make sense of where we are right now?
Missy Rentz:
Yeah. Okay. So I think this is a quote by Thomas Jefferson. I’ve also read that it’s credit to him, but there’s a little bit of unsure, but the quote I think is powerful, just the same. And it’s that”history is not history unless it’s the truth.” What is the process that historians go through to unravel the truth and how does time impact that story?
Beth English:
That’s a great question. I think we should start out by saying, small T truth, right? Like this idea of you can get really close to what big T truth is, capital T Truth is. Historians really start from the, the foundation of all the work that historians do are sources. Primary sources. What were the things that were created in the moment that you’re studying, by the people that you’re studying that shaped the events that you’re studying. And so we’re talking about examining multiple kinds of evidence, letters, documents, oral histories photographs, depending on what time period you are. Even places, right? You can look at environments and landscapes and learn about the past, but there are all kinds of sources and taking those together, they often speak from different perspectives, and then, weigh their reliability, weigh the context in which they were created. Ask critical questions. Who created the source? What was the motivation for creating the source? What does it tell us on its face? What does it not tell us? This is really basic primary source analysis. And and then using that to answer some sort of central question that that is being asked about the past. And the goal I think, for historians isn’t to get to one unchanging Capital T Truth, because as new sources become available, as new methodologies become available, new interpretive lenses, that you come to understand the past through those often will shape and influence understanding in ways that people writing or doing, historical analysis in in years past might not have had access to. And so it opens new lines of analysis, new and broadens our understanding. In that sense, history is often talked about as a dialogue between the past and the present. But again, it’s grounded in evidence. It’s grounded in documentation, it’s grounded in verifiable again, verifiable truths that are revealed in those sources that you look at.
Missy Rentz:
I think it’s so interesting, I’ve had several episodes with historical parks and I do think it’s really interesting how the Park Service has been really open to saying, this is new information we found. So this is the pivot in this story based off of what we know now, and I think it’s been admirable, up until recent times, that they almost are willing to say it’s not a mistake, it’s just the way history unfolds and the way discovery unfolds, but the way they’re willing to say if this is new findings, this is new information that we have because we found someone’s journal or we uncovered this structure, or whatever the case may be.
Beth English:
Yeah. And I think that each sort of new generation of historians will bring new questions and perspectives to again, to, they may be new sources, they may be old sources that you’re just. Seeing in different ways. And so they speak to additional threads and really a much more rich sort of evolving understanding of the past. And that’s, that’s one of the things I think that makes history so incredibly amazing is that, things that maybe were once overlooked or had been silenced might move to the center of our understanding of something. And that’s not rewriting history. That’s just understanding it and understanding understanding it from new perspectives and it, that’s what keeps history exciting, right? You know that a certain thing may have happened on a certain date, but it can, all kinds of new things can be revealed again, depending on the questions you bring, the sources that you know, come to light different methodologies for studying and understanding.
Missy Rentz:
Yeah.
Beth English:
It’s so rich and interesting. And, history does, it does evolve. It does evolve. But that doesn’t mean, again, that evolution is somehow tainting what is the fundamental basis and facts of our understanding or interpretation of the past?
Missy Rentz:
I love it when I’m at a park and there’ll be some discovery because someone found a journal in grandma’s attic or someone found something, and I think it’s, we are a more disposable society now, but I think there’s so much value in the stories that were written or the trinkets that were placed in an attic or in the basement or in a shoebox somewhere, and being open and willing to hand those over to something like the National Park Service, who then handled them with kid gloves to see if they’re a important part of our history.
Beth English:
Yeah. And that’s what’s so cool about history is that you know everybody, everybody has a history, right? You have family members who were around during these really critical and pivotal moments in the country, but they have this personal story about that. A lot of times, folks, folks now are I think increasingly paying attention to, and they always have, but more so now what is your family connection to the World War II generation, because we’re seeing that generation being lost really with time. And, there’s an incredible amount of personal story in all of those, in all of those histories and, bring that up to the present. Anything that’s happened in the past and that you have a personal touchstone for that just makes it all the more rich and exciting. And when you can see yourself reflected in some of these big narratives that we often see in textbooks or in parks or whatever they are, that’s where you make that personal connection that’s really meaningful. Not just to, the big picture past, but your own personal past and how that’s evolved.
Missy Rentz:
And, the Organization of American Historians does work with the National Park Service. What? What kind of work are you all doing to help in the historic preservation of our parks?
Beth English:
So the organization of American Historians has had a long relationship with the National Park Service starting decades ago with a cooperative agreement between OEH and NPS. And the work that, that OAH does is we connect our member historians with the park service to do historical research. And it can be things like historical content studies that will look at an existing park or maybe a proposed park and do the historical analysis to better understand the place that place or building or person that’s being remembered at a different site, made a contribution that was made to the big story of the United States. And so we’re doing the history on which much of the interpretation that the parks is based. And I should say that OAH isn’t the only organization that does this. There are many there are many like national Council on Public History has a very robust program as well, and there are others. But the idea is to get the very best and the very the most cutting edge of scholarly research that’s being done and applying that and those methodologies. Two, what is gonna be presented in public parks and in the National park system. And one of the things that’s really important about that I think, and that we should keep in mind is oftentimes it’s places like national parks where the majority of Americans and really, thinking about all the international travelers that come and visit our parks. Those are the places where people get their history from, They may have had it in civics class or social studies or, whatever, when they were studying in elementary and middle and high school, but at the end of the day the majority of people that have touched stones with history, they’re often getting it from a sign at a National Park, or they’re often getting it from going to visit the Smithsonian Museums in Washington. These are really important places for public conveyance of of the national story, of the national past.
Missy Rentz:
I love that, and I also love thinking about all the different organizations that weigh in because it gives different expertise, different credibility into what is that story and. And again, bringing different backgrounds together to, to interpret it. Our current administration, has mandated that certain words and exhibits are removed from our National Parks and museums. And removing a painting or a placard doesn’t mean that the history didn’t happen. Why is it that you think this approach is being taken and why, historically in the past, has it been taken to remove history from our. Public view.
Beth English:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, a current moment. What we’re seeing is really an aggressive push to flatten American history into a single celebratory story and to control a uniform national narrative. And part of that is and this really reflects a broader agenda, coming from, coming from the White House really, to San, I would call it sanitizing history, to align with a political agenda. And what we’re seeing really is an attempt to censor in the guise of a sort of imagine nationalism that really says, to a certain group of Americans,”you are part of the national story and to other Americans, you are not part of this national story.” So that erasure is a way of signaling and a way of making clear not just priorities, but who the administration feels is worthy of being part again, of that. National narrative and that national story.
Missy Rentz:
And I in my lifetime, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it be this aggressive, but historically, has this censorship happened in the past?
Beth English:
Oh, I think that, I think you have your finger on the pulse of it, that this is new in a, in an important way in that historically there have been attempts to remove or maybe soften the telling of parts of the past that reflect a debate. One of the, one of the points of contention that is often used as an example is the, Enola Gay exhibit. That was proposed in the nineties at the Smithsonian, and there was a huge debate about how that was going to be interpreted, right? In terms of what were the meanings of, the Enola Gay, but the broader questions about the morality of atomic warfare. And a lots of other questions that were coming into that. I think what’s different is that, what ultimately came on the other side of that particular moment, and we’ve seen this in the past in other ways as well, is that the end result was a dialogue with different partners and different stakeholders of that story. What we’re really seeing now is something very different in that we’re seeing we’re seeing these changes mandated from a very central place, a very, a very one-sided place, and the stakeholders and the experts are outside of that decision making process. And that’s really critical as well that we’re seeing a, an attempt to erase and edit the past. But to your point, when we remove evidence or language or a particular individual or group of individuals from a story. It doesn’t mean that didn’t happen, it’s just that we’re not getting the full and honest picture of the past. And really I think the big danger here is that it re potentially reduces public history, or at least the public history in some of these places, to propaganda to an artificial telling that has a political agenda on the other side of it.
Missy Rentz:
Yeah, and I think for one of the things that for me is like sometimes I go to parks. I recently was somewhere and was hearing a lot about native indigenous history. I was devastated and felt a lot of shame. I didn’t do that treatment 200 years ago, but there is a bit of ownership to it and I think it’s important to, to learn, going back to the first statement, like to learn about this and removing it really prevents our education and our direction moving forward. And I think that’s what has really sparked me into wanting to share my love of history even more in, in this because I think it will dumb down our decisions in the future because we won’t necessarily have quite as much history to choose from.
Beth English:
That’s right. Yeah. And I think it’s, this whole effort to, to sanitize and to change signage, I just see it as a huge affront to the public’s to think for itself.
Missy Rentz:
Yes.
Beth English:
When you go, when you go to a park or a museum, how you see something and how you interact with it and how you feel on the other side of it, that’s something that is it’s personal to you. It’s a learning experience. It it’s part of the education of a broad public, but it’s also very personal. And what’s really striking is that in survey, after survey, the majority of Americans say when they’re asked about history and they’re asked these kinds of questions about, histories that make people in various ways feel uncomfortable or feel ashamed or, any of these kinds of feelings, they still say on the other side of that, they want the full unvarnished presentation of the nation’s story. They don’t want it to be sanitized. They want the evidence-based stuff, and they wanna, they, they wanna have that rattling around in their heads. They wanna come to terms with it. They want to understand. Again, where we as a collective society have come from, what can you learn on the what can you learn from it? What can you do in the present to make a more just and empathetic society? Those are all questions that often are elicited, in these kinds of interactions with history that you know, that you just gave an example of.
Missy Rentz:
Yeah. And I just think that anything that sparks curiosity in someone’s desire to learn, I think is so important right now. And I just love that. Okay, what can we do to keep the story alive?
Beth English:
Great question. I think just telling it. Keep on telling it and whether it’s at a National Park site or whether it’s through a podcast or whether it’s just, historians just doing what they do and continuing to do the work, I think what we do to keep it alive is just keep telling it, keep studying it and all its full complexity and and really, as well, we need to think about what are the things that support being able to do that. Robust funding, adequate staffing at national park sites. All the the related things that go into public history programs, be, making sure that those are well. Resourced so that they can encourage people to engage so that they can encourage people to engage so that there is open discussion about the past. I think it also means, opening spaces where, you know, to the degree that they can be in as widely as they can be to new voices and interpretations that broaden that understanding. And again, the more we engage. The more we dig, the more truthful the, the story that’s being presented is the more resilient that history becomes. And so you can change signage, but that doesn’t, back to your point, doesn’t get rid of the, doesn’t get rid of the history that exists.
Missy Rentz:
I love it. Beth, at the end of every episode, we do a speed round of questions.
Beth English:
great.
Missy Rentz:
answer with what first comes to mind.
Beth English:
Okay.
Missy Rentz:
No pressure.
Beth English:
I feel a little on the spot. Go
Missy Rentz:
Okay. Okay. What is your earliest park memory?
Beth English:
Earliest park memory is probably the National Mall being at the National Mall with my family. We went on a, it was one of these, everybody gets in the station wagon. Literally the station wagon with the wood paneling drove down from Pennsylvania, spent a week in Washington. It was amazing, I don’t know. It was, I was pretty young, but I distinctly remember being at the Lincoln Memorial and we were reading, and looking around and my dad said to me, he said, doesn’t this make you feel proud? And I did. I was like, all goose bumpy. But of course, being a kid and being like, grouchy and surly, I’m like, no, but I lo I just absolutely love the National Mall. That’s one of my very earliest memories of a national park.
Missy Rentz:
What made you love the parks?
Beth English:
Ooh. I, again, I think it’s, I think it’s experiencing them well. I love the history. I’ve always been a history nerd. But I think also experiencing them with my family some of my best park memories were when I was a kid traveling, family vacations. My dad and I took this great trip with my mom and my husband as well, and my now 16-year-old, he was barely one at the time, but we went to, he, my dad was losing his eyesight and he had this bucket list of parks he wanted to go to. And so we went to the Badlands and Yellowstone and Grand Tetons and Grand Canyon. We did this like park hop. It was a crazy trip. But it’s those kinds of things that makes me love the parks. Not just experiencing these amazing spaces and natural wonders, but having that closeness to be, with people to be able to experience’em with.
Missy Rentz:
What is your favorite thing about the parks?
Beth English:
I think probably that they are uniquely American in a lot of ways, right? They they’re a testament to the scale and the diversity of our country. They’re just these amazing testaments of, of what this place is. And I think there are also testaments to where we have come from, from the ear, from the earliest days of when the parks were founded, to our understanding of what those places were and now are, and how we can understand our history through them.
Missy Rentz:
What is your favorite thing to do in a park?
Beth English:
I like to hike. I like to hike, I would say hiking. I also like a good park hotel where you can kick up your feet and just relax. Yeah.
Missy Rentz:
What park have you yet to visit, but it’s on your bucket list and why?
Beth English:
Oh gosh. I would say probably top of the list would be Glacier National Park. I’d love to see it. It is just, I’ve seen pictures of it and it’s so gorgeous and I’ve not ever been to a park like that before, so I think that would be at the top of the list.
Missy Rentz:
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?
Beth English:
Three must haves. Okay. Binoculars always take binoculars. I would say take a jacket because you never know when the weather’s gonna turn. And I should probably say something like a compass, but practically speaking, I would be more likely to pack like snacks so that I’m comfortable on the trip. Yeah.
Missy Rentz:
And what is your favorite campfire activity?
Beth English:
Campfire activity, I would say would be singing song, campfire songs. I love that.
Missy Rentz:
and are you staying in a tent, camper, or cabin?
Beth English:
Cabin, if I had a choice for sure.
Missy Rentz:
Are you hiking with or without trekking poles?
Beth English:
Oh, without, definitely.
Missy Rentz:
What is your favorite trail snack?
Beth English:
Probably almonds or some kind of salty, salty snack like that.
Missy Rentz:
What is your best animal sighting?
Beth English:
Whew. I would say a grizzly bear in Yellowstone. I was out there with my family and my brother’s family, and we saw this amazing grizzly bear and the kids, they were little at the time, kept calling it grizz through the whole, we had this had this thing with Grizz, the whole trip.
Missy Rentz:
I love that. What is your favorite sound in the park?
Beth English:
Oh, good one. I don’t know, like water, like rushing water. Trickling water, like streams and rivers. I, that’s just such a calming sound to me.
Missy Rentz:
What is the greatest gift that the parks give to us?
Beth English:
The greatest gift parks give to us. I think it’s that there’s something that we can, there’s something that we can all share and we can all, we can all share together.
Missy Rentz:
Beth, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for answering some of the questions I had about how history is captured and therefore told, and I really appreciate your insight and the importance of the history of our country.
Beth English:
It’s my pleasure. It was great to talk with you.
Missy Rentz:
That’s it for today’s episode. Until next time, we’ll see you in the parks. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please be sure to like and share on your favorite podcast platform. Music for The Parks Podcast is performed and produced by Porter Hardy. For more information, please follow us at The Parks Podcast, or visit our website at TheParksPodcast.com.